(15:10:53) drewp: hovering just to get info sounds terrible, like how i click on xchat all day long (15:10:58) drewp: (a hover plus a click :) (15:11:24) drewp: but theres no need for clickables that dont provide any info, when i'm not in the wnidow (15:11:38) drewp: so having the menu and selectors and stuff appear when i mousein might be good (15:11:43) drewp: unless it makes people crazy ... (18:26:48) dmcc: as for your hovering-shouldn't-be-used-for-info, (18:27:29) dmcc: i think there's too much info to be shown at all times in a small space (18:27:53) dmcc: i think instant-hovering is a pretty good way of making use of the space (18:28:14) drewp: i think i agree with that (18:28:34) dmcc: so what's your beef with hovering then? (18:28:36) drewp: i'm ok with the window growing when i'm over it, even (18:29:02) dmcc: it needs to grow in a way that the mouse is still over the same obj, which means new things added to the edges (18:29:28) drewp: hover is as bad as clicking. anything that i want to see (when i'm working in another window) needs to actually be visible (18:29:35) drewp: i'm having a hard time explaining this, actually (18:29:47) drewp: you understand my hate of xchat right? (18:29:51) dmcc: i don't use xcaht (18:30:02) drewp: it's a tabbed irc chat thing (18:30:11) dmcc: i think different people want to see different info (18:30:27) dmcc: some people (like me) want their dynamic buddy list, (18:30:39) drewp: yes- diff ppl/diff info (18:30:41) dmcc: and occasionally lookup info about certain people (last online time, e.g.) (18:30:53) dmcc: and i'm fine getting that info via hovering or even RMB (18:31:10) dmcc: i definitely won't be able to see all the info i want all the time (18:31:12) drewp: sounds ok (18:31:33) dmcc: so that's the type of hovering that i'm talking about (18:31:52) dmcc: whoa - power flickering here (18:32:00) drewp: incidentally, this is where i might propose a auto-changing display (scrolling or just paging). but i wont, since movement is a big cue for programs like these (18:32:18) dmcc: i don't think i like autochanging (18:32:25) dmcc: if i did, i would like the buddy ticker (18:32:35) drewp: right. i point out that it seems like a good soln to the problem at hand, but we both see why it isnt (18:33:15) drewp: and i think the reason is that it makes it take longer to get info from th window, and it adds movement to the window, and movemt is an important element not to be abused (18:33:27) dmcc: also, i disagree with hovering-is-as-bad-as-clicking: clicking = hovering + MB (18:33:35) dmcc: agreed (18:33:59) drewp: but for this info display problem, i'm tired of leaving my other window at all (18:34:19) drewp: the offense is less that i had to click or type something, it's that i had to wander to your window to do it at all (18:34:40) dmcc: i use keyboard jumps often (18:34:41) drewp: in fact, if xchat had a globla watch on, say, shift-fnkeys, i might be happier (18:35:02) drewp: ok, this might be a wm problem (18:35:08) dmcc: and i'm sure we're both for full kbd accessibility (18:35:22) dmcc: so just get your focus there and the mouse won't be favored as an input method (18:35:29) drewp: xchat takes alt-number to flip tabs, which i frequently use (18:35:45) dmcc: i just use control-tab and control-[ control-] (18:35:52) drewp: but the problem , in case you dont recall, si that a new message arrives on a tab every several seconds, and i haev to visit the window to learn what that msg was (18:36:07) dmcc: i thought we discussed a soln for this (18:36:14) drewp: several, probbaly (18:36:16) dmcc: where your chat window is split into 2 or so parts (18:36:23) dmcc: the top is your main window (18:36:35) dmcc: the bottom is fragments of messages that came in on other tabs (18:36:42) dmcc: clicking them takes you to the tab probably (18:38:50) dmcc: what are other solns? (18:41:43) drewp: if msgs are sparse enough, it could just change tabs for me (18:42:05) dmcc: perhaps that's a mode that is enabled automatically after x idle time? (18:42:11) drewp: whilst keeping in mind my last-used window (18:42:23) drewp: if they're sparse enough, it can change anytime i'm mouseout (18:42:32) dmcc: i like that (18:42:43) dmcc: that's primarily good for IRC though